Actually, I’ve been to where you are all going this summer, La Borde clinic, I stayed there for four to five days. It was a bit complicated for me because I was following (Félix) Guattari, but not many people were talking about him in public anymore. It was more Jean Oury, whose existence was outstanding. But when I stayed longer and got to know – they don’t use the word patient, what was it? Ah! “pensionnaire” – older pensionnaires, they began to talk about Guattari in person. They were very fond of him. But with Oury it was a little bit touchy… Of course, they respected each other. Oury was there always, he had to make the institution run. But Guattari was flying in and out, doing only interesting things… But at some point, many people started to talk about Guattari, how he was like, as their favorite memory. (…)
They were doing a lot of assemblies with pensionnaires and doctors, who were always mixed and often undistinguishable. And, it was in the process of their gatherings… not cure, it’s not analysis in conventional sense between a doctor and a patient. But as far as what I was able to observe, they tried to make a shift in the frame of mind and body in collectivity. For my sake, they organized a special assembly where all had to speak English. It was after Fukushima, so we discussed the issues around it. It was a kind of collaborative performance. [Laughing] That kind of things they did. My French is poor, I was not able to communicate very well, but I became friend with a man who was baking for everyone. He’s a pensionnaire! (…)
OK. Shall I start speaking on Fukushima? Maybe I’ll say one thing to begin with.The significance of Fukushima is seen in both ways, negative and positive. As you may already know, Japan, Korea, East Asian countries are very much men-centred, hierarchical societies. Even if this hierarchy has been weakened, women’s role is still fixed, considered as it is their nature. Even in activist communities, women habitually stand up and serve tea. In discussions, men tend to speak, and women try to summarize, they endeavour to watch everybody’s temperature and feelings. They tacitly play the role of invisible coordinator. (…)
I have to talk about it a bit stereotypically, because there is a very gendered situation persisting in Japan. We didn’t have anything like Act Up, for instance. In New York, this movement, that appeared after the tragedy of AIDS crisis, radically changed our perceptions and behaviours. I saw a lot of friends taking care of their lovers and friends, both men and women. Fukushima is a bit similar in the sense that a tragic situation revealed the importance of care and empowered its practice, and thus challenged communities in a revolutionary way.
Everyday care is the most crucial political horizon of the post-Fukushima struggles. All of a sudden, the catastrophe revealed these issues: who’s really doing this work? Or who’s making humans. And who is the most sensitive about it? This was all revealed after Fukushima. In this context, women’s role and political existence were highlighted, more than ever in Japan.
And that’s why evacuation has become one of the key issues. There are two kinds of evacuations. (1) The first one was mandated by the government. In the case of people who were living in highly radioactive zones, the government found them shelters and supported their evacuation financially. But radioactive permeation does not follow a simple pattern: it moves around and makes complex movements. The radioactive fallouts from the hydrogen explosions flew in different layers of the atmosphere: very high winds, that traveled very far, and also lower and shorter currents… So hot spots were discovered in many places, especially in the Fukushima area and even in Tokyo, where the contamination made mosaic patterns. It cannot be grasped by a simple mapping of concentric circles. In comparison with this complexity, the way the government determined who should leave and who could remain was too arbitrary. (2) So, a lot of people started to evacuate Tōhoku and Kantō regions to theWest or Hokkaidō, by their own judgements, without support. It seems like a personal choice, but we consider it as political action to defend their lives against the government’s logistics to keep residents and sustain the local economy necessary for Tokyo-centred geopolitics and developments. And this was usually motivated by women, if we talk about a family situation.
Silvia Federici, the feminist activist and thinker, had a lot of interest in the initiative of these “enraged mothers,” as they were called. Fukushima mothers came to Tokyo, for direct actions to revoke the 20mSv standard set by the government, especially in consideration of the susceptibility of children, on top of their everyday, local struggles to monitor radiation. 1 They demanded that the government be more responsible with the medical examination of the people, with the safety of children’s school lunch, etc. So, the idea of politics, of what is political, all of a sudden opened up an unprecedented horizon for many of us. We had to face the complexity of the political in the catastrophe, including all aspects of everyday life. Since then, care is very much the key term.
In some of your texts, you mention that people were engaging in popular study of medicine, especially radioprotection, trying to find autonomous ways of monitoring and dealing with radioactive contamination. Is it only about radioprotection, or is it going beyond and toward new ways of conceiving of health?
To me two references regarding care and health are very important after Fukushima.
1
One is the Hiroshima / Nagasaki experience, through this medical doctor, Shuntarô Hida – he died a few years ago [in 2017]. He was himself a Hiroshima victim, a Hiroshima witness. He was doing two things, one was to demand that the US government compensate the victims and their offshoots – not only the victims themselves, but their offshoots as well, because genetic mutations are inherited.
On the other hand, regarding Fukushima, he made a very strong statement, saying that, after the nuclear catastrophe, Japanese people will never be free from small doses of radiation anymore. Hida was trying to encourage a general idea of health, ways to empower your immunity and maintain your body and mind, under the inevitable internal exposure to small doses of radiation.
His point is that you really have to do it yourself, nobody can help you. This is not to foster individualist behaviours, but a “you are the only person who can help you” kind of attitude. I think in the final instance, it was very important because that’s precisely telling how the government is irresponsible, and society too, because their priority was the economic and industrial recovery at the expense of people’s well-being. Especially since some Japanese medical specialists are even saying that anxiety coming from the fear of radiation is worse than the effect of radioactivity itself. And far less than necessary medical examination has been made, that’s for sure.
2
And the second reference about which people are talking a lot is Minamata Disease. It’s not radiation illness but fatal mutation from mercury poisoning. Many people started to read Michiko Ishimure – she died very recently, a month ago or so. She was a novelist, a poet, but also a very dedicated activist fighting along with Minamata patients. She was from Minamata herself and grew up there. Before the disease, she was already a writer, but after it surfaced, she became politically active and started writing about it.
Minamata is in the Southern part of Japan, in theWestern part of Kyūshū, which is geographically a very complex coastal region, with many inlets. It’s an incredibly beautiful coastal town. A very crucial fact is that people live from fishing. Economically, it’s originally not a flourishing, wealthy place, but money came to town with Chisso corporation [now JNC: Japan New Chisso], a chemical industry producing fertilizer, liquid crystal, etc., which has always been backed by the state, before and after the war.
Ishimure’s writing gives us the horizon to struggle against this extremely nasty industrial pollution, involving full of implications on how to think of this world. Her pieces constitute some kind of documents: medical documents, records of the court cases, descriptions of protest, and of its context as well, the way of life among local people, their history and environment. She also includes the voices of many individuals, real existing individuals, most of them in agony, the mutation of their body and deterioration of the mind.
But, her vision includes – I don’t know how to say, it’s very difficult to say – the title of her works shows it already: 苦海浄土 (Kukai jôdo), “ku(kai)” is the world of agony and “jôdo” is heaven. Livia Monnet’s translation into English is Paradise in the Sea of Sorrow. So somehow Ishimure’s capable of presenting a kind of cosmology, the richness of local life overlapping with this hell inflicted by capitalism and the state. Somehow, she has faith in this locality and – it’s not recovery, but something else… This tension is really incredible. Or it’s not exactly a tension but a complexity, also involving local folklore, local language. We’re still interpreting her work, as a rich index of the life in our catastrophic world. To me, this is something we need to approach seriously, because after Fukushima and all other industrial hazards, I’m very pessimistic about health and the possibility to sustain a good environment. But we continue to live and struggle for happiness.
Rebecca Solnit wrote a book called A Paradise Built in Hell, on how catastrophic situations can create a mutual aid society. After Fukushima she came to Japan, and we discussed. Of course, in the long perspective, what she says is totally correct and inspiring, but in the immediate situation, in Fukushima, that’s not possible. With radioactivity… If there hadn’t been radioactivity, no matter how thoroughly homes and other infrastructures are destroyed, people can rebuild. But now land and people are separated because of this radioactivity. So, I think, the only possibility would be a kind of mutual aid society, possibly in a nomadic or mobile form… Solnit honestly told us that this situation is a little bit difficult, more difficult than what she wrote. That’s very honest.
With radioactivity… If it’s high radioactivity it’s evident, but what’s nasty in Japan’s situation are small doses – small doses and internal exposure. X-rays are external, bomb is external. Internal exposure is what you inhale with dust, or drink with water, or eat with food. And the threshold, the amount of what is safe and not safe, is very difficult to determine.
I feel that this nasty and obscure situation is going to be worse and worse.The issue of how to sustain our will to autonomy, our own health, our community relations is the key.
The difficulty in Japan concerns this – I would use the word “violence.” This is not immediate violence, like police brutality or military attack. It’s a kind of invisible violence, very hard to determine where is its cause. It’s the whole drive of Japan’s postwar capitalism, and the relationship with the United States, which introduced nuclear power into the country that already experienced the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs. This insanity….
This is what is called “slow violence” by Rob Nixon, that is, the imposition of industrial waste – created by exploitation of human and natural resources for commodification – back on our body and environment, always with discrimination or unevenness, on the minorities and the people in peripheries, instead of recycling them within the productive and reproductive systems. This form of violence is hard to connect with a protest type of action, you know, the mass of angry people who go to the government to demand compensations of their injustices. After Fukushima, the people did that for about two years, but it died down, in confrontation with the enemy whose stretch of power is so large and complex.What persists inconspicuously is more everyday care, how we can mutually care for each other, not just push it to women or people in the periphery.The most difficult, politically difficult, thing nowadays in Japan, is to connect protest culture and reproductive practices in an organic manner.
If we follow the nuclear problematic toward
its entirety, it reaches the problematic of the Anthropocene, because of its global stretch. The Anthropocene is one dimension, the whole thing, the big thing. I believe that the problematization of the whole is very important. But, when we look at post-Fukushima Japan from a microscopic view, the issue is more about unevenness, there’s a lot of unevenness. We need both big and small views to approach the slow violence. While the everyday care under the threat of radiation is pushed to reproductive workers (and women), nuclear wastes are usually stored in poor neighborhoods or sent to the periphery – Japan is trying to export it to Mongolia, etc.
Is the Fukushima disaster reconfiguring the whole region? Not just Japan?
TEPCO’s nuclear powerplant in Fukushima is still releasing radioactivity in the ocean. That’s a very important question, but also the real question is that the politics of nation-states consider the ocean only as a pool of resources (i.e., for fishing industries), or as a dumpsite – but for the ecosystem, ocean is much more than that, right? The territorial politics of the nation-state cannot deal with such a situation. This politics is over! Now it is only hazardous to the planetary beings!
In the beginning, after the reactors exploded, I don’t remember how long afterward, the government allowed TEPCO to release radioactivity in the ocean. The association of fishermen was the first to oppose it, because they knew the impact. I believe they have a clear sense of the whole issue of people living with nature. In the first months, they did the very brave act of fishing for measuring, without selling. But at some point, with government’s pressure and in order to get compensation – which they needed for living – they had to start selling. They had to set their own threshold (below 50 Bq / 100 kg), that is lower than the government’s (100 Bq / kg). This messed up situation, where people are forced to choose their subsistence or planetary well-being, makes people’s ethical thinking almost numb.

In your essays, you mention the effects of nuclear explosions, as well as nuclear energy itself, on thoughts and affects, can you talk about it?
Nuclear power, or nuclear fission, has two faces, one is the bomb, the other is energy. These two sides cannot be separated, because nuclear fission itself is a catastrophe – almost like a never-ending catastrophe. My hypothesis is that the Janus-face of nuclear power is the most solid joint of capitalism and the state. Here the tasks of ousting capitalism and stopping nuclear power would merge. But the threats on humanity by a possible nuclear war or inevitable nuclear accidents force us to think very big, in terms of saving humanity, almost to our incapacitation. Our political action can hardly reach this humanity level, except for petitioning at the UN, or for the better, making a huge coalition of all struggles of the people who are affected by the global nexus of nuclear production and consumption. In any case, the task is so large that we either have to start a new planetary movement or give up!
This is one level, huge level. But also, there
is another level, micro-level: radiation and the governance that seeks to nationalize or commodify it by encouraging food distribution and using radioactive soils as part of construction materials. As in the post-Fukushima struggles in Japan, there are two enemies: the pro-nuclear government and the radiation itself. But the latter is not quite a political enemy. It has already become part of the environment.
In any event, we used to believe in organic food, natural food – and of course we still believe that it’s better than artificial food – but, in a radioactive situation, the most beautiful green or organic food can be…
… irradiated, polluted by radiation.
That’s the very big threat to this idea of pure nature as the resources to create commons. But still we must create autonomy with commons in the apocalyptic situation. Perhaps, we should create
a different way, in a detour or roundabout way, it’s something we still have to find out. This politics, or struggle, is ongoing, so there’s no answer. But to face this endless pollution, we have to extend our practice of care, of caring for each other and for ourselves. Maybe that’s something I want to get from Ishimure: she has two aspects. She sustains faith in the power of nature or nature as active creativity [natura naturans]. But also, what we have to do, the dimension of struggle is almost endless… So, this is both heaven and hell.
…With KABANE77 and other anarchist groups here in Montréal we’re interested in Donna Haraway’s work. At the end of FabrizioTerranova’s film on her, Story Telling for Earthly Survival (2016), there’s a fictive part in which Haraway’s interest in possible transformations and mutations of humans in their mixing with non- humans is developed.To accept becoming a little monkey, or butterfly…With radiation, since it’s invisible, how can we relate to mutation, or grasp it with fiction?
That’s an interesting question. I like her theoretical orientation, in a very large perspective. I agree with Haraway in the onto-metaphysical sense that the creative power of nature involves uncontrollable mutations, which we need to affirm, beyond humanism. But how we do so in our techno-political practice is our challenge. Again, I think it has to do with what Ishimure’s ultimately getting at – with the two aspects. The extensiveness of what we have to do for survival is unknown and expanding. But on the other hand, we also don’t know what our body as part of nature can do.
Do you feel that the fact of working on Fukushima is depressing? I’ve been working on it a bit, and at some point I felt I needed to think of something else, because it brings so much negativity, it’s super hard.
I felt more incapacitated than depressed. But now I must say that I forgot how I was thinking before Fukushima. So naïve I was. My idea of anti-capitalism was so simplistic. Naïve may not be bad, but I was able to say things on the world much too simply. My idea of the political was lopsided. And I forgot that sense. At least, I was not planning to write about nuclear power or radiation at all. I cannot believe that’s what I’m doing.
- In the wake of March 11, 2011, the Japanese government raised the legal exposure limit to radioactivity from 1 to 20 mSv/year for the “evacuation zone” (20 – 30 km around Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant). On August 26, 2011, the limit was lowered back to 1 mSv/year. But hot spots, with very high radioactivity levels, are scattered everywhere in the region, and even in Tokyo, far outside the former “evacuation zone” (Christophe Sabouret, “Fukushima, sortie du nucléaire et occasions manquées,” Ecologie & politique 2012/v. 1, n. 44, p.165).→